A contribution that was planned as an interview, then became a failed podcast and now engaged in an exciting dispute between Eleni Arvaniti, lawyer and co-founder of twinwin and Lisa Schiemann, organizational developer, has transformed.
The term “New Work” has been on many people's lips not just since yesterday, at the latest since progressive globalization and digitalization have continued to transform our working world, more and more employees and employers are asking themselves: How do we want to work?
What is the score of work-life balance? Or maybe you'd prefer work-life blending?
And what actually constitutes good work?
But what does “New Work” actually mean and is it more than just a buzzword?
And how is the whole thing to be viewed from a legal point of view? Does German employment law stand in the way of progress or are there perhaps even win-win situations?
Eleni Arvaniti, lawyer and co-founder of twinwin, and Lisa Schiemann, organizational developer, address these and other questions in the following discussion, moderated by Jessica Maria Freund:
Jessica: Hello and welcome Lisa, Eleni and all interested readers!
Here at twinwin, it is particularly important to us to exchange ideas with experts and HR enthusiasts on all topics relating to HR and law.
For those who don't know twinwin yet: We offer legal tech solutions for HR, in short, we take care of your everyday HR and legal problems of tomorrow — today.
I'm looking forward to our conversation: Eleni will certainly refute all the clichés of the old bad lawyers and focus on Lisa's perspective as an organizational developer with an HR background and, above all, passionate New Work I am also particularly excited about those who are enthusiastic.
I give the floor to Lisa!
Lisa: Thank you for your very nice intro, there is nothing to add at first.
Eleni: Lisa, we are delighted that you are here today and I would also like to thank you for the great introduction.
In fact, I too sometimes become a bad lawyer, but I may not be in line with the classic image of a lawyer.
And I am also incredibly interested in topics other than law and that is why we came together today to talk about New Work to talk.
Jessica: Thank you both so much! Under normal circumstances, I take care of business development and marketing at twinwin, but today I am responsible for moderating or perhaps resolving disputes, depending on how the conversation goes.
Now we're also getting to our hot topic, which is hard to avoid in HR right now, namely New Work.
Maybe the readers feel the same way, but I've noticed that there are a lot of different terms flying around in connection with New Work:
Home office, modern workplace learning, work-life integration. I think I'm not the only one who sometimes loses track of things.
What exactly does New Work Because for both of you and which initiatives do you find particularly important?
“Accordingly, I see New Work first and foremost as a question of attitude, a mindset.”
Lisa: As a New Work enthusiast, I like to start with this:
I fully understand that New Work It is currently a buzzword and as a result there is also a lot of confusion.
The starting point for me, also in the spirit of Friethjof Bergmann, who founded the movement as a philosopher back in the eighties, is the following guiding principle: Think about work from the point of view of life. Accordingly, I see New Work First and foremost as a question of attitude, a mindset.
All the keywords that Jessica mentioned briefly are also included, but what should be in the foreground for now is a fundamental pattern of thinking and values: Look at work radically differently than we still do today in most cases and as we otherwise know it from traditional contract work from 200 years ago.
Eleni: I can only agree with that! As a lawyer, in the spirit of verifying the definition and finding out the facts, I of course first researched the theory from the eighties in detail and examined everything that the original definition of New Work covered.
Of course, there are many terms and keywords here; in the end, these are also concepts that have already been partially established in the last 30 — 40 years, in particular with regard to working hours and trust models as well as flexible or agile working methods.
I also agree with the classic definition to the extent that it requires a flexible organizational structure in which you can introduce and also implement alternative working models.
In this context, I find the balancing act that management and HR professionals have to successfully manage:
On the one hand, to comply with occupational safety regulations, i.e. legal requirements, and on the other hand, to take account of the interests and wishes of employees in these new work and organizational models.
Last but not least, an incredible change has already taken place:
Let's think back to our parents or grandparents, these days the job is no longer (just) a job, but a vocation and the majority of us have the ambition to fulfill ourselves at work.
If this can actually be implemented in practice, this is also in line with my understanding of New Work.
Jessica: Practical implementation is indeed an important point, especially against the background of numerous legal requirements.
These can certainly also pose a challenge for employers who are willing to give employees more freedom.
In particular, trust-based working time comes to mind, which is also a hot topic.
Where do you actually start as an employer when you have more New Work Would you like to integrate into the company?
Lisa: That is a very good question. I've just had goosebumps when the lawyer at my side pointed out legal hurdles that need to be overcome.
In the People & Culture context in which I often work, these hurdles and legal challenges do indeed sometimes appear overwhelming and some initiatives unfortunately fail as a result.
Nonetheless, a good starting point would be to ask yourself within the company how more trust can be created in principle. Managers and HR in particular must start early on, even before it is a question of whether working hours should be tracked or how time-off should be understood.
Management must be aware of whether they are really ready to New Work To go away and also re-evaluate again and again how work can actually be adapted to our lives.
Personal days are an interesting example:
The employee is neither ill nor on vacation; rather, it is something in between. There may be an awareness that you are not fit, not productive on a particular day — or that you may not be productive until 20:00.
However, implementation is not that easy, so how can a flexible and legally compliant solution be found that meets the interests of all?
“Some legal requirements, even though they naturally have their right to exist to protect workers, are at least in part no longer up to date and require adjustment.”
Eleni: In this sense, a tandem like the one we are leading now is essential. Care should be taken quickly, especially when working in the evening, because the Working Hours Act has limits: After 11 pm, it is night work, which in turn means having to pay for it accordingly.
Employees also have freedom of choice: time off or pay. It is also important to maintain the 11-hour break between two working days. These are all requirements that the employer must comply with.
As a result of the pandemic, however, there is also movement again at legislative level in some of the New Work related topics came up. For example, there is a draft bill on the legislative amendment on mobile work.
However, progress is slow and it can also be stated that there is unfortunately a lack of political will to change and implement legislation in some cases. In this context, it is also clear that some legal requirements, even though they naturally have their right to exist to protect workers, are at least in part no longer up to date and require adjustment.
It is very sad that the pandemic had to strike first so that everyone quickly and hastily tried to get used to this crisis situation, manage it, and on the other hand to maintain the health, including the mental health of their employees and deal with legal challenges sensibly without exposing the company to risks.
As a result, it is unfortunately the case that many well-intentioned projects by HR or management who want to address the topic and have the right mindset do not result in 100% legally secure design. This, in turn, can result in displeasure within the team if it is not clear why the implementation of some new methods and models fails or is only possible to a limited extent.
Lisa: Another important aspect and a fundamental question that needs to be asked is also: How do we actually understand or define work today and where are the limits of work, which is taking place more and more frequently in the digital space.
It should also be remembered that many of the topics discussed in New Work Discuss context represent an insane privilege.
Last but not least, occupational safety and rest periods have a protective function for employees and there are numerous industries in which it is in no way relevant how flexible work can be done. The topic therefore also has many political and social aspects, because last but not least, it is about how we understand work as a society and what we expect from it collectively. Even today, many are still denied self-fulfillment at work.
Even as New Work I am also aware that especially in the start-up world, where we are currently trying to bring New Work to life the most, many like to take up the concept in order to be perceived as an attractive employer, but are reluctant to actually implement it. Especially when it comes to the concept of transparent salaries, even many companies that have a genuine interest in New Work Have, money is still a big taboo topic.
In this context, I recommend the book “New Pay” by Sven Franke.
Some particularly progressive companies have already taken huge steps.
“It is a question of attitude, whether you live it or not. And if you choose to do so, then with consistency and integrity.”
Eleni: I actually know a company that first introduced the system of transparent salaries and then reversed it.
However, there are certainly companies that approach the issue of salary very democratically and live that way.
However, I find your point extremely important: You said that it is a question of attitude, whether you live it or not. And if you choose to do so, then with consistency and integrity.
By the way, in our preliminary talk, you used an interesting term about this: bluewashing. What is it about?
“Let us do our work on life, not the other way around! And try something new all the time!”
Lisa: The term greenwashing Most people are certainly aware of the approach to bluewashing is similar, but here the focus is more on the company's public image with regard to social, political and social issues.
As a company, you should ask yourself the question honestly: Do I pick myself from New Work Just come up with a few ideas that suit me well, or do I believe in the thinking and values behind them?
Nevertheless, every company is at the beginning and is allowed to try things out, so it is understandable if you try New Pay, for example, and then back out again.
It is important not to stop questioning, to accept challenges and to be open to new opportunities.
With the salary in particular, it is less about knowing what exactly the person next to me now earns, but more about creating clarity about how the salary comes about. What is the system behind it?
In addition, salary as such does not only consist of a purely financial component.
Benefits are just as important and more and more employees want part-time models: because our time is becoming increasingly important to us.
It is therefore a question of creating creative incentive systems that are not only financial in nature.
Let us do our work on life, not the other way around! And try something new all the time!
Eleni: I also think that no one is designing a completely new work concept, New Work 3.0, something like that can develop over time, company-specific and culturally. It is also possible to see whether the employee finds the right company, where there are opportunities for further development and where the values match.
When you design these concepts, it is also about developing them further together and perhaps discarding some things and developing other concepts, which is also an agile and good way of working.
A common perspective is also important, because what actually makes a company stand out?
The biggest and most important part is the people in the company, and humans are not machines.
Collaborative development and the ability to adapt to specific circumstances are therefore essential.
Lisa: And in order to make this collaborative development possible, it is in turn essential to create structures where people can be human and contribute: with liveliness and creativity.
This also includes not being in a good mood, you also have to be able to show that.
It is important to design, collectively, how you want to be together, so that everyone can fully contribute as a person.
Here I am thinking, for example, of holocratic, socio-cratic systems vs. hierarchies.
“The biggest and most important part is the people in the company, and humans are not machines.”
Eleni: Do you also understand this to mean the abolition of positions and titles? Holocratic systems are often project-related?
Lisa: Absolutely! In my opinion, the ideal job posting sounds like this:
“Look for someone who wants to get involved.”
I find this to be an exciting and fascinating concept, but of course every company can assess for themselves how much they are already prepared to do.
But I have a few interesting ideas that I would like to try out.
An important keyword: Take bold steps forward. Everything that happens there is also a question of courage, but in order to be brave, I also have to be able to show myself as a person.
Eleni: I think it's really nice, so when we advertise, we'll consult you again: “Courageous person wanted”
This would at least have met all the requirements of the General Equal Treatment Act (AGG) for job advertisements and avoided many risks.
Lisa: Well, now we actually have thanks New Work Solved a legal challenge and not create a new one at all?
“Looking for someone who wants to get involved”
Eleni: Indeed! On the one hand, there are unfortunately still some companies that publish job advertisements that violate the AGG.
On the other hand, there are also applicants who systematically look out for violations and apply for the advertised position without serious interest and then, in the event of a rejection, make use of the company in question.
Compensation of up to 3 months' salaries is then at stake.
In fact, we also receive many inquiries about this topic from companies that do not want to expose themselves to such risks and want to be legally secure.
With such an open and inclusive job posting as you suggest, the problem would of course be solved.
Lisa: Hopefully, companies not only want to protect themselves legally, but also have a serious interest in inclusion?
Eleni: Absolutely, in my experience, in addition to the interest in being legally correct, there is a serious will to prevent discrimination.
Jessica: Dear Lisa, from your remarks, you can clearly tell how strong you are behind the New Work Philosophy stands. I am pleased to hear this and reaffirms how important the correct mindset is.
It certainly also means an effort for companies to find out about a wide variety of initiatives and try out new things.
Some might not be willing to do that, but it sounds like it's worth the effort.
I've already learned a lot in this conversation, so my final question to you is:
What did you learn from the conversation?
Lisa: I am really impressed that the job posting “brave person” creates a legal problem “thanks” New Work have solved instead of creating a new one. As I explained at the beginning, I sometimes feel powerless and constricted in the face of the many legal challenges, but sometimes it also seems easy.
I wasn't even aware of that in advance.
Eleni: I agree with that and this is also where my passion is shown.
Law can sometimes be quite dry: during my work as an in-house lawyer, I also really enjoyed working closely with HR. Solving legal problems with creativity, or preferably not letting them arise in the first place, was particularly fun for me.
A very refreshing and lovely conversation!
Lisa: That is good work New Work!
Jessica: Personally, I am also pleased that we are actually able to actively live it this way at Twinwin and have the freedom to develop creatively.
Eleni: Jessica and I are indeed doing this very actively: we simply take the time and I am pleased that, in addition to the main tasks, we can also create space for ourselves to try out other projects.
Jessica: Thank you for this exciting exchange, which hopefully also inspires our readers and makes them think!
— January 2022 —
Do you have any questions or suggestions? Feel free to write to us at support@twinwin.org!
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